Fate of Io
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2002/11/06 09:54:12 PST by Temporal [manager]
[Temporal's avatar]

Zorba: Of course any game engine I would develop would have dynamic LOD using either polygon reduction techniques or NURBS (or both!).

3Der: Polygon reduction only distorts your models if you are using a crappy reduction algorithm or if you reduce them to incredibly low polygon counts.

2002/11/11 19:09:44 PST by zorbathut [0/4]
Awards: 2 from Dev

3Der: *bad* polyreduction can be done in most 3d programs, including MAX :) I don't know any program that uses this algorithm, however, it looks beautiful. The artists had done an 8000 tri model and a 3000 tri model - running the polyreduction on the 8000 tri model brought it down to about 2200 tri, and it looked the same as the 3000 tri model. It's quite possible to write a program to do better polyreduction than a human can (basic explanation: humans require models that are still maintainable, and have logical triangle placement. Computers are under no such constraint.)

And there are a lot of companies doing the polyreduction thing - advantages include the fact that you can customize the model format for whatever hardware you like, *and* you can generate a beautiful bumpmap at the same time.

So actually, making a 50,000 poly model and reducing it to 2,000 polys might produce *better* results than just making a 2,000 poly model. And, in fact, making a million-poly model might be even better.

(I'm told that if you want to write a fantastic 10-page paper, you should write a 20-page paper, then reduce it to 10 pages. I think this is the same principle :P)

temporal: dynamic LOD's neat, but there are some good arguments for pregenerating the meshes. Basically, you can throw a lot more CPU power at it. If you're doing it in runtime, you need a fast algorithm - if you're doing it beforehand, you can have your computer spend an hour on each model without a problem.

Note that the game Messiah was trying to do beautiful dynamic LOD from enormous models. It looks junky and didn't run well - they had to use a quick-and-dirty reduction algorithm and it *still* wasn't fast enough.

2002/11/12 02:18:44 PST by Temporal [manager]
[Temporal's avatar]

Err... yes, that's what I meant. Polygon reduction would be calculated ahead of time, not in-game.

2002/11/12 13:45:10 PST by mystik3eb [0/43]
[mystik3eb's avatar]

You guys seen the new look of Zelda? I know some of might hate it but...even though I would prefer a SSBM-looking Link, the coming-up Gamecube Zelda actually looks awesome.

Now I'm not saying I want Syne and Dell to be totally flat and cartoony, but I was thinking that maybe we should have a whole 3D enviornment/background kinda stuff, and then have 2D characters. Personally I like the 16-bit FFVI characters looks better than the horribly blocky edgy polygonal FF7-9 characters, and I think I would prefer this kind of format...but that's me. As Temp said, the later FF's did nothing with their 3D (10 used more than the others, but not in a real advantageous way (is that a word??)), and FFVI was just as good as the others (if not better than some).

What say you other guys?

2002/11/12 17:55:57 PST by zorbathut [0/4]
Awards: 1 from Dev

mystik: the only problem I'd see in that is that often merging 2d and 3d looks, er, glitchy, shall we say. It's usually better to go with one type of graphic for the entire game, or you end up with serious visual problems :/ Things just plain don't *fit*. It ends up looking like a bad sprite webcomic ;) The best mergings of 2d and 3d that I've ever seen have looked adequate. At best. The other times . . . it just plain sticks out painfully.

which is really unfortunate in a lot of ways *grin*

2002/11/12 23:21:48 PST by Temporal [manager]
[Temporal's avatar]

And so we are returned to the original idea, which was cartoon shading. If we do 3D, I stand by my strong recommendation that it be cartoon shading, as it will be far easier to make it look good and it would be stylish at the same time. The new game cube Zelda uses cartoon shading... although we wouldn't have to make it look quite so silly. I think anime style would be good for FoI.

2002/11/12 23:57:16 PST by Bahamut ONE [0/4]
Quote:

a whole 3D enviornment/background kinda stuff, and then have 2D characters.

You mean like parappa? HAHAHA would be great.

2002/11/13 06:53:34 PST by 3Der [0/7]

I don't like the look of cartoon shading, but I have to admit that it will save a load of time. And if this game is in 3D, I agree with temp in this,not because I want it like this but it is more practical. One thing i don't like about cartoon shading is because it makes it look like it were drawn by a 5 yr old. If we can make it look like "Spirited Away" that will be cool.

2002/11/13 06:55:38 PST by 3Der [0/7]
Edited at 2002/11/13 06:58:16 PST

Sorry, I didn't see my post in page 1, so i submitted it again and then later realized that it was on the second page

After posting a topic it should take you to your post, not the first page.

2002/11/13 10:03:00 PST by Clockwork Dragon [0/3]

Okay, I say this:

Make it FF Tactics-esque.

I hated the game itself, but I thought they way they did the graphics was pretty cool. Yes, their little block was suspended over a huge void, but we can change that. It gives us a chance to use contributors' artwork as well as giving a 3D environment to move through.

Not only this, but certain terrains can be manipulated battle-wise. So there's my spiel.

But I do think we're going in the right direction by trying to decide the basis of the game, because if we don't know what format of game it's going to be, we can't build anything onto it.

2002/11/13 10:07:47 PST by Clockwork Dragon [0/3]

Oh, lol, and if you haven't played FF Tactics, then it works like this:

The characters are drawn, 2d (sort of like paper), but they have several directions from which they can be seen. They move around through a grid-based world, and their environments are 3D. There are different height levels, and the 'camera' and be changed so you can see where a character lies in comparison to another.

If you guys have worried about puzzled being done in this fashion, I don't really think it'll be that hard to pull off; it's a 3D world, but just with 2D artwork characters. But by all means, let's put noses on ours.

2002/11/13 15:30:12 PST by Temporal [manager]
Edited at 2002/11/13 15:51:32 PST
[Temporal's avatar]

3der: What do you mean, cartoon shading looks like it was drawn by a 5-year-old? How so? It's just a shading style... the shape of the characters has nothing to do with how they are shaded.

ClockworkDragon: Sorry, I don't like sprites. Besides, I imagine it would probably be easier to just model the characters than draw them in possibly hundreds of different frames of animation from 10-20 separate angles.

Everyone: Woops, I swear I tested multi-page topics, but I guess not well enough. This is the frist topic on v4 beta to reach a second page. Expect some bug fixes in the near future.

(EDIT: Test test, 1, 2.)

2002/11/13 15:51:49 PST by Temporal [manager]
Edited at 2002/11/13 15:54:16 PST
[Temporal's avatar]

(Testing new post, 1, 2)

OK, fixed:
- After posting or editing, you are returned to the page on which you posted.
- Pages are listed at both the top and the bottom of the posts (previously they were only at the top, so once you got to the end you couldn't tell that there were more posts).
- The activity page now links you directly to the page on which the post occurred. (Actually, it attempted to do so before, but it ended up sending you to the previous page... oops!)

OK, please continue with the topic. :)

2002/11/13 17:28:36 PST by 3Der [0/7]

Ok,maybe not drawn by a 5yr old, but it looks like..well..a cartoon. And I'm not into cartoons alot.

2002/11/13 20:11:37 PST by mystik3eb [0/43]
[mystik3eb's avatar]

Ok, I like the cartoon shading idea too. Cartoon shading it is (?)

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