Fate of Io: Current mechanics

Current mechanics

2002/12/04 17:24:13 PST by HiddenFox [0/1]

Angel Of Death,
That's the joy of the first person prespective, you don't have to worry about designing cameras and levels around your PoV. However, I don't know how you would impliment first person in a project like this, it's just a random idea I thought I would throw out. Heh, hopefully I wont get lynched for mentioning first person prespective in an RPG project.

3D doesn't exacly mean moveing camera either, it can be done with fixed camera positions (ie. ff7 and ff8). Although to truly get the benifits of 3D, I think a dynamic camera would be best.

Of course, this is all assuming we don't go 2D.

2002/12/04 18:53:49 PST by Dev [manager]

Quote from jcore:

I think the most important thing to decide now is: what medium is necessary to 1) get across the story accurately and 2) provide the desired gameplay.

A good way to think about it, I think. (One too many thinks in that sentence...)

We're still a bit shaky on what we want our "desired gameplay" to be, so your second criterion, jcore, will have to be put on hold temporarily. I'm glad to see, though, that you created a topic in the Gameplay section to explore the very question. ;D

As for the first part... I guess if I can't speak on it, who can? Parts of this rely on foresight, guessing how we'd develop the project down these two options; parts of it rely on experience, having played both 2D and 3D RPGs. The difference is generally the same as the difference between reading a book and watching a movie, if only that, in a book, the task of visualizing (in the highest sense of the verb) is placed on the mind of the reader. With a movie, that task has already been done and is simply revealed on screen in a very literal sense. So the question is, how do we want the player to experience FoI's story?

My personal opinion is for book-like 2D format. The story was born not out of visual concepts, but out of a narrative developed purely in the mind. In my opinion, it would be best to communicate the story in as close to that mindset as possible, giving the imagination of the player plenty of room to have fun and dabble in the world of the game. Going 3D runs the risk of falling far short of whatever vision the story means to provoke; 3D graphics are taken literally, and there's little room for the player to make anything up for him or herself.

Take that as my two cents. I'm not wielding managerial authoritative power on this issue quite yet.

2002/12/04 19:04:53 PST by Temporal [manager]

Hmm... Frankly, for me, 2D vs. 3D is nothing like book vs. movie. If I see a scene in 2D, the visual is still provided for me... it's just usually not nearly as detailed or as well-animated. I don't find myself adding in details using my imagination... at least, not in the way I would while reading a book. Maybe that's just me.

FWIW, seeing the FMV's for FF6, which were done long after the game itself was released (and long after I had played it many times), seemed to add a lot to the game itself. My visualization of Terra went from being a small, pixelated sprite to a realistic human female. Somehow I think it made her character more realistic... more complete.

Now that I think about it... I found it much easier to empathize with characters in the later FF games, where I could see their facial expressions in the FMV's. That did add something to the experience... but I'm not sure if that is important enough or if we're likely to be able to recreate that sort of experience with our more limited resources.

2002/12/04 19:59:39 PST by jcore [0/6]
Awards: 1 from Dev

Dev, I've got to disagree with you on this one. I think the imagination can be "hindered" (augmented? ;)) equally well in either 2D or 3D. I think the real issue is what the developers decide to put up on screen. I'd even say that if you have both a 2D and 3D sprite on screen which are the same size, the 2D sprite will be more revealing. Also, face-shots and such can be used in both a 2D and 3D game to the same effect.

I'd like to suggest again that we stop focusing on what the game will look like (or how popular it will be) and instead focus on which medium will give the desired gameplay and deliver the story most effectively.

2002/12/04 20:49:42 PST by Aetrus [0/15]

I think a 2D game'd be just dandy. My favourite FFs are all 2D. I think Square did it's best work in 2D. Now of course that's a matter of opinion, but it seemed to me that they had to work harder on the other elements of the game. 3D is more beleivable, but it takes more time. They spent over 2 years making FF7. And for what? Again my opinion, but I really thought the story and characters were pretty one sided. Even with some nice twists I just didn't think the script was up to previous FFs. Then again I am purist when it comes to fantasy. Grew up reading Tolkien and all that you know. I see 2D being a more realistic goal, and a PC 2D RPG would be fine with me. We're appealing to a niche here not a general market where everything must have a great sell all hook. We're not making any profit so we aren't limited by considerations of what will sell or not. We can let our creative juices go full tilt and be happy knowing what we accomplished. Even if 1000 people d/l it. That's still 1000 people who are enjoying our work. We have no break even level, and no one gets paid so even 100 d/ls would be fine with me.

(PC = computer platform running whatever OSes we decide to support in this post) 2D is very much fine with me, BUT if our creative juices running full tilt come up with a viable way to create a 3d game then I am onboard. Just prove it can be done, and I will be gung ho. I'm a music guy so it's not going to change my work much either way if at all.

3D sound would be nice though...5.1 and all that, but good luck finding an inexpensive 5.1 encoder. Mixers are out there, but not encoders from what I've found. There is a $400 add on for ACID Pro 4 that will finalize 5.1 dolby digital and burn DVDs but that's a bit out of our price range.

2002/12/04 21:09:31 PST by 3Der [0/7]
Edited at 2002/12/04 21:50:45 PST
Awards: 1 from Dev

jcore:I don't see what you mean by 2D being more detailed then 3D. how so? 3D uses 3 x more detail then 2D.

Anyway, we could make the game in 2d with flash and fmv scenes. I'm not sure how hard flash is to make but it should be easier then modeling 3D meshes. I realise that we won't have the time to make this game in 3D. even if we do use cartoon shading we would still have to have 100s of hours to animate,model,create bones, lighting,rendering,special effects...etc.
I was hoping that more modelers and animators would help as the project got more well known, but it seeems like it won't work that way.
but we could still create fmv's like they did with the older ff, that way I could be of help in some way :)

Edit: I still think 3D games allow the player to interact with the world better and have more emotion and drama then 2D. Its just too bad we don't have the time...

Edit: Its too bad Aetrus that you don't care for graphics. 3D graphics is a work of art, and should leave you feeling something. Its just like a good musical score which should make you feel good,sad, or make you want to destroy everything in your path. When I first saw a screenshot of yuna walking on water I was speechless by the beauty of the picture. Which is why I started learning 3D art. The fmv's of ff are the part of the game i like the most and I always looked forward to the ending expecting a great fmv. But sadly the endings of ff arent THAT great, ff8 ending video camera fmv was nice but the rest wasnt that great. ffx ending was ok.. Thats why I hope to make Foi's ending one of the best endings ever...er...the point is games arent just about gameplay. final fantasy is not JUST A GAME , its a work of ART, its a masterpiece!

2002/12/04 23:12:25 PST by mystik3eb [0/43]
Awards: 1 from Dev

...wow...this all happened between now and 6 hours ago? Yeesh...

...*ahem*, well, personally, I believe there is serious situation of "opinion" in this whole matter, and not much is going to get done unless people start going against an idea that wouldn't want to support. I honestly don't like the way that looks, but there really is no choice.

But for MY opinion...I like 2D better overall. I liked the way the bodies could move and interact better in the 3D ff's, but the faces...did absolutely nothing (excluding FFx, which did a great job...just needed better characters emotionally...or...whatever I mean). In the 2D FF's, their faces AND bodies reacted and changed, and yea, I DID love the new FF5 and 6 FMVs, they really did *most* the characters justice.

I was very dissapointed when I found out we weren't going to have FMVs. But maybe someone should start developing them just in case we DO want to implement them, or that our fans will want to see some...whatever the reason, we should be prepared. Of course, we would all approve the look and feel of the movies, and I highly doubt the 3D quality will be FF8 quality, but hey...we're *basically* amatuers here.

But about your medium...well, I do agree that gameplay plans can (and probably should) wait until we get story and illustration done (which is going kinda slow guys...), however, I don't think people should spend ZERO attention or give NO input on gameplay. Course...this is only if I'm interpreting your statement correctly...

Alright...that was tons of typing and I'm not sure more than half of it made sense...BTW, it's good to have you here jcore.

2002/12/04 23:36:26 PST by Aetrus [0/15]
Awards: 1 from Dev

I'm game for both styles guys don't get me wrong.

3Der: My point was lost in my comparo between the two FF types. What I meant was that Square spent TOO much time on graphics and not enough on the actual storyline. Exactly what I think we'd do if we went 3d. I apreciated the graphics, yes, but I wanted more substance. A good musical score does leave me feeling emotions. FF7 did not with a few notable exceptions. The graphics were a HUGE leap forward, but they left some things behind. My major gripe with FF7 has always been it's use of MIDI. I know that the PSX was brand new then, and that they didn't get a whole lot of time on it to explore the music engine and all. Still as a purist who got MASSIVE emotion out the way the SNES (of all things) synthesized the music of FF6 I was totally disapointed in this supposedly new and superior technology. (too new as it turned out)

I always got more out of the 2D ffs. Maybe because I started with FF on the NES and worked from there. I'd prefer a great 2D game to a good 3D one, but honestly IF 3D can be pulled off in a reasonable amount of time then I'm all for it. Really I am! lol. But I don't want to see us get bogged down in 3D when 2D would have gotten us farther, ya know?!?! (to borrow a line from FF8 :) which I liked massively better than FF7. Sue me MEH!)

2002/12/05 13:55:31 PST by mystik3eb [0/43]
Awards: 1 from Dev

Haha, I agree. The usual issue with 3D games (including some recent FF's (*cough* FF7 *cough*)) is that too much time was spent on developing the "superior graphics" (to borrow a line from Mortisland ;) ) instead of working on a painless music font (lol) and a better-then-just-"decent" storyline. But again...this is all opinion. I went through the exact same cycle you went through Aetrus, so I know what you're talking about (yes, I agree, FF8 WAS better than FF7...so sue BOTH of us)

But yes, I also agree: If you guys want to spend the time making great 3D (I mean at least good, not scary to look at), then let's do it. I'm not worried at all about the storyline, it's probably the best part of this project. When we DO work on our "graphics", we better make sure we interpret them as close to the storyline as possible. In fact, we better do that with EVERYTHING about this game (duh...haha).

Anyway...sorry to repeat myself. Not many other opportunities to post right now (I mean there aren't many other threads I can post in and know what I'm talking about =) ).

2002/12/05 16:32:30 PST by HiddenFox [0/1]
Awards: 1 from Dev

First of all, we can forget about the FF7 style 3D, simply becasue it doesn't add anything to the gameplay. Please, stop thinking FF7-X graphics whenever 3D is brought up, we have more options then what FF has tried (and IMHO failed) to do.

As for too much time was spent on developing the "superior graphics" and losing sight of everything else, no. It's not like our musicians, story writers, and artists are going to drop everything to help out on makeing the game 3D. The non graphical aspects of the game will remain the same. We're not going to make the same mistake as another popular RPG developer,right? ;-)

I think the big problem in this discussion is that we're letting our opinions be influenced by other popular RPG games. 2D doesn't have to be FF style sprites, and 3D doesn't have to be the new FF style either.

Personally, I think if we find some good 3D artists (for models, etc), we should be able to handle 3D.

2002/12/05 23:30:06 PST by 3Der [0/7]
Awards: 1 from Dev

First of all ,ff always spent time on the graphics making it it the best looking game on the market at that time. FF1 for Nes was the best looking game for sale where could you actually make out what those sprites were. a monster would actually look like a monster instead of a bunch of colored pixles.

So I don't think ff spent too much time on graphics,just look at ffx's plot(I won't tell it for those of you who havent played it) its full of twists and someone obviously thought about it before writing it down. And I don't think they spent less money writing ffx's story then writing ff4 or 5. It takes a certain amount of people to write a story down and hireing more people doesnt nesscesary mean you come up with a better story.
There are always gonna be people who try to to pick out flaws in a story asking why this? why that?, they can never accept the fact that it just IS.
I would like to know what you think about fate of io's story, is it better then square's? if square came out with the same storyline would you say its crap or good? Lets critque fate of io's story not squares.What is your honest opinion?
I think that the plot where Syne is already dead is old and has been used too many times. It gives you a little surprise but its not like Wow great story, Its more like "it okay..". It doesnt suck, but I don't think its any better then squares plot. there are always people around the web saying "lets make a plot better then square's" but the fact is they cant come up with anything better.

2002/12/06 09:39:45 PST by Dev [manager]

As a humble request, could we attempt to refrain from making judgments on the story until all of the revised outlines have been made available? Personally, and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone, I'm confident that FoI's story--while it contains many traditional features--is also unique and communicates messages with real literary value, which is more than I can say about some FF plots. ::cough8cough::

And I agree with Fox; that's comparing our story on an FF-standard, which we probably shouldn't be doing in the first place.

2002/12/06 09:51:44 PST by Temporal [manager]
Edited at 2002/12/06 09:54:39 PST

FFX made me cringe with some of it's grevious plot holes...

WARNING: Spoiler for Final Fantasy X! Highlight to reveal text.

Auron is already dead? WTF? An Semour? So, when you die, you can just go on living? No explanation whatsoever as to how this was possible? I just taught myself to ignore it, and I got by... but, damn...

Despite that, I do think that the stories have improved over time, and there are definately some very powerful moments in FFX... but... yeah...

Anyway... 3Der, I don't think you've been introduced to the real meaning of our story... it hasn't been mentioned in some time. I should really write it up on the site somewhere. Then I could send it to Dev every time he needs a reminder. (hehe, j/k Dev)

But that's wayyyy off topic here, in any case.

2002/12/06 23:11:11 PST by 3Der [0/7]

Sorry,Its too quick to start judgeing the story..I know we'er still a far from complete.

2002/12/07 12:37:13 PST by Black Squall [0/5]
Awards: 1 from Dev

I have been reading this thread to see whats going on but avoided most of my posting as this this sort of thing is over my head. But I cought the post about getting good 3d models to help pull this off. Unfortuanatly I don't know modelling either but I have been trying to persuade one of my friends to join and he seems interested, but he is VERY lasy. He doesn't know too much modeling yet but he does do a pretty good job in cad and is going to start taking some more courses starting in January to help with that.

Another place you could go for modeling would be the online FPS comunity, while we're not making an FPS there is some incredible tallent in that community and some of them may be more than willing to lend a hand. If you do go to this area make sure you go to the modellors not the skinners or the sprite editors.