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2003/10/30 09:40:26 PST by FattyMatty [0/0]

Ah the exciting moment of my first driving lesson
Step 1:Stall straight away
Step 2:Revesre into garage door
Step 3:Find new Driving instructor

Oh well

2003/10/30 10:00:34 PST by mystik3eb [0/43]
[mystik3eb's avatar]

Hehe, I had an asian driver. He was hard to understand. Plus asian drivers (at least in california) are among the WORST (nothing racist, it's just TRUE). Also, I didn't start stick, so I had an easy time learning. Then I learned stick later in a day or two. Stick ROCKS!

2003/10/30 10:41:55 PST by Temporal [manager]
[Temporal's avatar]

Are you going to take that, Kass?

2003/10/30 10:59:01 PST by Kass [0/13]

Um. mystik, your comment doesn't strike me as having much "truth" at all. The phrases in your parenthetical comment appear to be reversed.

But seeing as I am personally a lousy driver and I'm frankly scared of the road, I'm not gonna argue on my own behalf.

Regardless, Temp, I'm American, not Asian. There isn't really anything here to respond to.

2003/10/30 11:11:03 PST by Temporal [manager]
[Temporal's avatar]

Mystik, I think you should read this recent post on Slashdot. You may find it enlightening.


2003/10/30 15:46:08 PST by Aetrus [0/15]


I suppose I should take that post as funny? If this was in response to a potentially offensive comment by Mystik then I think it was in bad taste. I personally, don't fit most of those stereotypes and had a distinct problem with number 7. As one who has been in therapy for 3 years I DO find it helpful. Saying that it's all just whining is ignorant, and smacks of one who has never been there.

On the other hand I've long since discovered that I'm not the typical "Yank" so I do see the truth of those comments WAY TO FREAKIN OFTEN. Poeple are just morons in this country. I mean I work retail I know all about it! :)

2003/10/30 17:50:48 PST by Temporal [manager]
Edited at 2003/10/30 17:51:35 PST
[Temporal's avatar]

I'm just trying to demonstrate the notion of generalization. Any American can see that not a single point in that Slashdot post is anywhere near being true of Americans in general (and, indeed, I do not find the post funny at all). However, many Europeans actually believe that most Americans display such traits, based on the few extreme cases they see in the media and whatnot. Similarily, Mystik believes that most "Asians" in California are bad drivers, probably because he's encountered some bad drivers who happened to be "Asian". The bottom line is, these beliefs hold equal merit.

2003/10/30 20:55:05 PST by Aetrus [0/15]

Ah I understand Temp. I missed the point the first time around. :p

2003/10/31 10:08:59 PST by mystik3eb [0/43]
Edited at 2003/10/31 10:11:43 PST
[mystik3eb's avatar]

I wasn't clear: the vast majority of the asian drivers in the San Jose area simply CAN'T drive. Ask any asians who live there, they'll CONFESS! I've personally almost been killed several times by asian drivers (in other words every close encounter was with an asian driver), so I have experience as well as witness. And I'M offended to think you guys think I'm racist. It's the same kinda comment that whites can't rap. It's not racist, it's just (in a majority fashion) TRUE. I LOVE asian people, I still wish I was asian (well, asian american) for a lot of reasons, hehe. of course, I still think that Utahns are the most reckless dangerous drivers, it's just that the Silicon Valley asians were almost all bad drivers. My behind-the-wheel instructor was the same. I pretty much taught myself everything I learned. He almost got us both killed a few times. It's just a sad fact. Now, in Utah, all the asians I've seen are pretty decent, so I'm not saying ALL asians are bad, just the ones in Silicon Valley (for whatever reason...my parents, friends, of which half were asians themselves, and myself kept trying to come up with theories to why they were so bad). Hope that clears up my statement. Believe me when I say I'm NOT racist and did not say anything in a racist fashion. Whether you stretch it to be a racist statement is your doing, cuz you'd have to stretch that one pretty far, especially after this clarity.

PS: Racist & stereotypical, it's not as stereotypical as you think.

2003/10/31 15:39:32 PST by Temporal [manager]
[Temporal's avatar]

Mystik, your comment was racist by definition. There is absolutely no relation between being "Asian" (or of Asian decent) and driving skill. Your idea that there is comes purely from common logical fallacies. That is, because you have had a number of incidents where people who happened to be "Asian" were driving poorly, you have come to the conclusion that it is somehow because they are "Asian". It's not. You are wrong.

Now, there's no reason to have a flame war over this. I understand that you meant no harm or offense, and I don't automatically think you are a racist person for saying what you did. It was just an innocent mistake. Please realize, though, that such statements are ignorant and they are offensive. So, regardless of your true intent, you are being ignorant and offensive by making them.

Really, imagine if you were arguing with the guy that wrote that Slashdot comment, and you were trying to convince him that not all Americans are morons, and he refused to believe you based on the fact that he had met a few Americans and they were all morons.

2003/10/31 18:42:23 PST by mystik3eb [0/43]
[mystik3eb's avatar]

Yes. Now go live in the San Jose area for a year or two and tell me I was racist and ignorant. I actually did put thought into what I said, and I didn't base that opinion off a FEW encounters. It's like a probability: in the San Jose area, if you are asian, there's a 90% chance you are a bad driver. At least not american-born asians. We figure it's because they focus so much on one thing that they can't concentrate on other things. Besides, these are all originally from asia, most Chinese, where few people drive and most walk or bike or whatever. As I said, me, my parents and my friends have tried to figure out why. I mean, c'mon, every person I've ever driven with (EVERY person) has looked into the car of a bad driver and said "Probably asian", and every time it was either an old person or an asian. But yeah, it's not as ignorant as you think, otherwise I wouldn't make such a comment.

And I'm not gonna say we don't have to flame about this, since the last person to type always says that, then the person replying HAS to reply and say the same thing, so I won't do that. Course, I'm not saying I don't wanna argue about it...

2003/10/31 19:53:07 PST by Temporal [manager]
[Temporal's avatar]
Quote from mystik3eb:

in the San Jose area, if you are asian, there's a 90% chance you are a bad driver.


Let me explain this a bit differently. 30% of the population of the San Jose metro area is "Asian". That's a pretty big percentage. In fact, it is the largest among major cities in the continental US. However, I would wager that, when you lived there, 90% or more of the people you actually interacted with were not "Asian". This is, unfortunately, fairly normal. People tend to associate with others of their own "race", perhaps because it's easier to identify with people who come from the same cultural background.

Now, when you were out on the street, no doubt 30% of all bad drivers you encountered were "Asian". The thing is, since you are not accustomed to interacting with "Asians" a lot, your brain has a tendancy to notice more when a driver is "Asian". On the other hand, when a white driver does something stupid, you don't specifically remember that they are white, because you don't see them as being unusual in any way. This is a very easy and common mistake to make. In fact, it is human nature to make this mistake. All of your friends came to the same conclusion the same way. However, the conclusion is FALSE.

Indeed, this phenomenon is exactly the cause of most racist beliefs.

As a comparison, one thing I have noticed when driving around the slums of Minneapolis is that there are a lot of people who like to randomly walk out into the street in the middle of traffic. Most of the people I see doing this are black, and at times I have noticed myself getting the idea that black people don't know how to check for traffic before crossing streets. However, most of the residents of the inner city of Minneapolis are black, so such a conclusion is clearly fallicious; white people in the slums are just as likely to do such things. I make a conscious effort to correct myself when I start thinking these things, because they are racist ideas that have no basis in reality. Unfortunately, it is natural for humans to be racist (and, in general, to see patterns that aren't really there), so you have to make a conscious effort to think about these things and realize when you are wrong. If you don't make this effort, you will inevidably end up saying and believing things that are racist.

Besides, if 90% of "Asians" in San Jose are bad drivers, then you are saying that at least 27% of the city is bad at driving. Think about all the good drivers you pass every time you drive anywhere. It's only one in a hundred, or maybe even one in a thousand who does something stupid. So, even if there were some truth to the idea that "Asians" are worse drivers, you can see that your claim is absurd. And then, how can you judge the entire "Asian" population of San Jose based on the few you have encountered who were bad drivers? Is that really fair?

(Incase anyone is wondering, I put words like "Asian" and "race" in quotes because I don't really like using them in this context. The people we are talking about are all American, not Asian, as Kass pointed out. Furthermore, a person's "race" really tells you no more about that person than does the color of their eyes or hair. It seems silly to me to distinguish people by "race" at all.)

2003/11/01 00:09:34 PST by Davy boy2000b [0/13]
[Davy boy2000b's avatar]

Wow. Only 30%??

Come to my area at West London. It's like 'Spot The White Man'!

2003/11/03 09:53:38 PST by mystik3eb [0/43]
[mystik3eb's avatar]

Well, the thing is, everytime I saw a bad driver, I ALWAYS checked to see who was driving. ALWAYS. And the vast majority were asian. But I only say that after all that's been said to kinda top of my argument and make sure it's all there. Otherwise, I have nothing left to say except I still stand where I do and for, in my opinion, solid reason.

2003/11/03 11:17:48 PST by Temporal [manager]
[Temporal's avatar]

No one likes to admit (or believe) that they have made a common human error. However, the idea that people of Asian descent (in any city) are naturally worse drivers is clearly wrong (and racist by definition). So, there must be some other explanation for what you believe. Either the majority of the population of the areas you frequented was "Asian" (certainly possible), or you are suffering from the above mentioned psychological phenomenon. It's probably some combination of the two. In any case, that's all I have to say about that. If you refuse to believe that you could be making such errors, there's nothing I can do to convince you.

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