Fate of Io
Current mechanics
2002/11/23 16:18:43 PST by Casull [0/0]

Cel shading, huh?
I'm not realy an expert on the subject... in fact I'm r e a l y not an expert on the subject.
But with cel shading isn't it possible to just assign a color to a surface instead of having to create a texture for it?
Cause that would save a lot of work. You'd only have to make textures for those things that realy need them.
The way I always understood it you could just give an object, say a rock for instance, the color brown and the cel shading would calculate the different shades of gray depending on the lightsource...
or maybe I'm just a computer illiterate idiot. Probably a little of both.

Oh, and on the 3d thing, I say go for it.
If things turn out a little too... err, "labor intensive" you can always cut corners by using 2d backgrounds in places that would otherwise be too "poly-heavy" to model...

N64 owners might remember how in Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time the fully 3d environment of the overworld and dungeons sometimes changed to a "Final Fantasy-style" 2d background with a fixed camera, for instance inside houses. It wasn't as anoying as you might think.

2002/11/23 19:19:37 PST by Temporal [manager]
[Temporal's avatar]

You are correct, Casull. Using cartoon shading, we would not need textures for most things.

As far as using 2D backgrounds in some places... I don't think that would help us much. They likely did that in Zelda 64 to save space. I am pretty sure most of those scenes were actually 3D modelled, but just pre-rendered (like the scenes in FF7-9 were). We won't be space limited, so it will probably actually be easier to use fully 3D scenes everywhere.

The only way 2D would make sense at all is if we did everything using blocky sprites, like in the SNES FF's... which would not bother me one bit. I loved those games. :)

2002/11/24 05:03:52 PST by 3Der [0/7]

The time it will take for us to build the textures depends on how detailed we want this game to be. if we want this to be like super mario 64 then the texture creating will be quite easy. However If youve ever played "Gun Grave" you can see how detailed textures can get even though your using cartoon shading. there is also non photo realistic shading(nprs), it works alot like cartoon shading where you can choose how detailed you want your game to be. Personally I like nprs better because it doesnt look like it were drawn with crayons :)
Anyways, when the time comes we will have to decide how much detail we want to make.

2002/11/24 16:17:00 PST by Temporal [manager]
[Temporal's avatar]

"Non-photorealistic rendering" refers to any rendering algorithm that is not designed with the intention of producing realistic images. So, cartoon shading is, in fact, non-photorealistic rendering. Is there a specific algorithm you were referring to? If so, I'd like to know what.

As for cartoon shading looking like it was drawn with crayons... That doesn't make any sense to me. Do you think anime looks like it was drawn with crayons?

Back on the old forum (or was it the old old forum? I can't find them) I had posted some links to some really cool movies done with cartoon shading that did not look childish in any way... does anyone remember those links?

2002/11/25 01:11:09 PST by 3Der [0/7]
Awards: 1 from Dev

I meant it looks like as if it were drawn. with crayons, markers,color pencils it doesnt matter. I am aware of the capability of cartoon shading, and that we don't have to make it look silly. I've posted screenshots of one of the best looking cartoon shading games I've seen and own, its called "Gun Grave" which I mentioned earlier. the link is http://www.geocities.com/opengateaway/shaders.html
It obviously uses more texture then super mario, but the textures arent as hard to make then the realistic approach.

The last two pictures are done with manga shader(I think thats what its called,not sure). If you look at the picture theres probably like only one texture in there, the rest are just colored.one of the major differences is that the mesh doesnt deform when rendered like with cartoon shading. if you look at the bra the straps rotate around, it doesnt deform and look 2D. second is that it doesnt give you that "drawn" look. er... i don't know how to describe it, but the shading is just "different".

I personally don't think cartoon shading fits in with nprs, but maybe thats just my own opinion. why I don't think so is because of the two reasons above. it deforms the mesh, and the shading makes it look like it were colored by humans,not computer generated.

Note:the last two pictures were created by yinako minako

2002/11/25 14:42:51 PST by mystik3eb [0/43]
[mystik3eb's avatar]

Link doesn't work, btw. Server being weird or something? And sorry Temp, I don't remember those sites, wether they were on the old forums or the FF9HQ forums.

Yeah, get that link working. I would like to see some pictures of what 3der's definition of "cartoon shading" is, because I was under the impression that anime used cartoon shading, and I like the look of that.

2002/11/25 22:50:52 PST by 3Der [0/7]

hmm..works for me, try again and if it still doesnt work, go to http://www.geocities.com/opengateaway/index.html
and click on the link at the bottom of the page.

2002/11/26 03:33:07 PST by Temporal [manager]
[Temporal's avatar]
Quote from 3Der:

I personally don't think cartoon shading fits in with nprs, but maybe thats just my own opinion.

Errr... It's not an opinion thing. Non-photorealistic shading is a defined concept in computer graphics. It refers to any shading algorithm which does not seek to produce photorealistic results, including cartoon rendering. That's all I was saying.

I am not sure what you mean about cartoon shading causing deformation of meshes. Cartoon shading does not have anything to do with the shape of a mesh.

Anyway, yeah, it is quite possible to do realistic shading without texturers, if you just have high polygon detail. The fourth picture on your site looks very nice indeed, but you'll notice the detail levels are quite high. If you can model stuff like that, great... but somehow I don't think we'll have enough combined skill and manpower to model a whole world and everything in it at that level of detail. Cartoon shading allows us to drop the detail quite a bit without making a noticeable difference, since large areas generally have a solid color anyway.

2002/11/26 17:00:37 PST by mystik3eb [0/43]
[mystik3eb's avatar]

Ok, it worked now. And...if that's cartoon shading (not what I thought it quite was), then I still like it better than the other things/general 3D. It's basically what I was thinking, in fact more so than what I was thinking.

2002/11/28 23:16:54 PST by HiddenFox [0/1]
Edited by Temporal at 2002/12/01 13:44:50 PST

In the defence of Cell (cartoon) shading:

Ok, here's my 2 cents as the new guy. Personally, I love 3D. If used properly we can go a long ways with it. However, we have to keep in mind how much harder it's going to make things for us. For example, do we have anybody skilled in making 3D models? The programming itself, as Temporal is probably away of, will be a lot more complicated, especially if we want to make the engine ourselves. We also know that sprites are a lot less intimidating to contributes then textures and skins. I'm new here, therefore I have no idea what we're capable of, so my apologies if I'm underestimating you guys. If we can do it, go for it.

2D is not to be underestimated either. It's a lot more accessible and easer to contribute to, we can also make it look pretty darn nice. However, I don't see any game play advantages other then nostalgia.

PS: If we go 3D, I agree with the cell shading idea

2002/11/29 02:55:34 PST by 3Der [0/7]

Yeah, that picture is a good example how cartoon shading deforms the mesh, notice his head doesnt rotate around like it should but looks flat. cartoon shading deforms the mesh making it look 2D. It gives you distance but the objects look flat.

2002/11/29 14:17:29 PST by HiddenFox [0/1]

"deforming the mesh" may be a bad choice of words. The mesh itself will remain the same, however cell shadeing effects how the mesh is textured and lit.

2002/12/01 13:47:44 PST by Temporal [manager]
[Temporal's avatar]

Well, that image isn't exactly the type of shading I had in mind... but, 3Der is right about it looking flat. I guess my answer to that is, I like that look. It's a style thing. Some people won't like it, but I think it looks cool.

"Deforming the mesh" is definately not the right way to describe it. It's not deformed, it's just shaded differently.

2002/12/04 09:38:45 PST by jcore [0/6]
Awards: 1 from Dev

Here are the things that we considered when designing Ecclesia RPG...

easier, more portable (we planned on getting the game running on consoles, at least the Dreamcast), more detailed artwork (you can get away with a lot of stuff in 3D that you can't in 2D)

more work, need for a good engine (which would limit our number of target platforms unless we built our own), more versatile

We debated this quite heavily. I initially pushed for 2D because I wanted to see the game finished in the near future. But the guy writing the story and gameplay convinced us to use a hybrid system like the one in Final Fantasy Tactics.

We decided that even a hybrid approach would leave us with a lot of work, so we also adopted the idea of developing the plot completely inside of the battle engine (again, like FFT). We could use 2D sprites (on 3D billboards, drawn from 4-8 angles) although they would limit the amount of zooming and lighting effects that we could do. But perhaps most importantly, a 3D playing field would give us our most important objective: a complex and enthralling battle system (we planned on making the dynamics even more complex than FFT).

After time I've come to the conclusion that while the decision between 2D and 3D does indeed shape all of the rest of development (aside from perhaps music), the game would be equally enjoyable in either medium. As much as I like new 3D fighting games such as Soul Calibur, I still enjoy _well animated_ 2D fighters put out by SNK and others. As much as I enjoyed Grandia II and Final Fantasy Tactics, they both tie for 1st place with Final Fantasy IV on my list.

I think the most important thing to decide now is: what medium is necessary to 1) get across the story accurately and 2) provide the desired gameplay.

2002/12/04 11:43:00 PST by AngelOfDeath [0/0]

Talking of zooming and such made me think of the fact that it seems like a big problem with 3D stuff is camera angles. Some of those 3D games are highly irritating because you don't kow where you are, or have a bad perspective.

What sort of solution for this is there? How many games have use the camera in a non-aggravating way? I've been trying to think of some, but maybe I just haven't been playing the right games to know.

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