I must say, Kerry earned my respect by simply dropping the issue and not pursuing it when he's obviously lost.

Now, let's do something we should've done for the past four years and unite! Who cares who wins the Presidency? Once he's won, he's won! There's no point in arguing and getting mad at each other and seperating just cuz the person we wanted to win didn't. So let's unite under Bush (simply because he's the President) for the sake of unity.

Some of you might say I wouldn't say the same thing if Kerry had won. Actually I would, I've been saying it since before Kerry was even running. We just need to unite and stop ripping each other apart. Nobody's perfect; neither Bush nor Kerry are perfect, but I think they both would do a pretty good job in the Oval Office.

What say you?

Why on Earth would I unify behind policies which I believe to be damaging our economy and destroying our respect abroad? No, I will continue to voice my discontent with Bush just as I would with any president whose actions were so absurdly myopic and arrogant.

And, no, 3Der, we're mostly American here.

Sorry, I did'nt mean to go off ranting and raving, I should probably spend more time on the game than talking about politics anyway. lol

Unity behind bad policies only hurts America more.

"After all, that's exactly what terrorists don't want us to do, right?"

What the terrorists want or don't want us to do is completely irrelevant. We should do what's right. I am so, so sick of hearing about what the terrorists "want" us to do. 99% of the time it's not even something the terrorists care about, but just the opposite of what the speaker things we should be doing.

That site sounds like a bunch of bitter liberals trying to find some way to convince Americans of fraud that probably doesn't exist, though it could. Personally I can't stand when people buy into conspiracies and that kinda stuff; it's like these people need drama in their lives or something, cuz that's usually all it is.

And as far as "bad policies" goes: I have to disagree with you, Temp. I don't think he has bad policies. Can't say the same about the environment cuz I don't know enough, but with most everything else...yea. Based on my research (man that sounds formal...), when it comes down to it, people can really only argue for or against Bush based on morals, cuz he's not doing much of anything wrong otherwise. If he was, he wouldn't have had my vote.

All right, and here's where all my thoughts come out. I won't have much to say on the topic after this, so here goes.

Economic: The jobs ratio of lost to gained is 1:9.0 I don't care how it happened, we've simply gained more jobs under Bush than any other president, and we gained FAR more than we lost. People complain about the tax cuts. They say it only benefits the rich. Well, it benefits leaders of companies, and when CEOs and those types are doing better, they can help their company do better, and with that opens more jobs. I believe that benefits the not-so-rich. Yea our country's in alot of debt. Alexander Hamilton did the same thing and it's a part of what saved our country early on. The country always seems to work off it's debts and go far beyond whatever debt we were in. With the opening of more jobs and a boost to the economy, I can't say for sure but I beleive we'll be able to defeat that debt without much trouble.

Foreign: When most the world's governments dislike us anyway, what is he supposed to do about it? He did try, yea, and we've helped other countries when they've needed it WITHOUT being asked countless times. Most of these countries are ungrateful and don't have much hope when trying to ask for help from them. Besides, I don't think Bush should've pushed the war off anyway. People were constantly dying every freaking day. The vast majority of Iraqis are eternally grateful for us and what we've done, and I don't think we're much worse off than we could've been if we'd waited any longer. Kerry pushed for diplomacy. Diplomacy is obviously the preferred manner to get things done, as Bush has said, but when it's obvious, after trying which he has, though I'm not sure how much, that diplomacy isn't gonna get anywhere, stop complaining about it and do SOMETHING that's gonna get the job done!

Iraq: There are more terrorists attacking us in there now than earlier on. More Americans are dying as time goes on. The resistance seems to always grow. Well of COURSE it is when the terrorist world realizes "Oh crud, they mean business, they're here! And look how fast they took out Saddam's powerful regime! We gotta stop them now or we're screwed!" They're all pouring into Iraq to try and defeat us now! We're surprised that the enemy is only fighting harder? The enemy wasn't only Iraq, Iraq was simply a powerful ally of the enemy. The war on terror is getting heated up, and though it sucks that we have to keep losing soldiers, they're dying for a righteous cause, I don't care what anyone says, and I'm proud of them. Note how most of them supported Bush? If they're not complaining, then why are we?

Terrorism: These terrorists have never been so threatened since before 9/11 because we've finally started fighting back. Why is hatred being caused? Because some religious sects out there are teaching it, not because we're causing it. We're being America, doing our job, which is to help people who are innocently being harmed, and to protect our country. People hate us for whatever reason, because our country is powerful in many ways, because we are free and can do whatever, they hate us for whatever reason. Most terrorists grew up with the hatred as a part of their lives. It's not our fault, it's the fault of the teachings. If we don't stop that, the hatred will never end. That IS the cause of the hatred. Other countries dislike us, but almost none will ever support an attack against us (except those that house terrorism, who Bush says he plans on taking care of, by the way).

Morals: I was unaware of the McCain thing. Then again, McCain goes both ways, so I don't know about him anyway. But as far as morals go, Bush supports all morals I support, which makes alot of people angry, of course. What I call moral issues are issues like gay marriage and abortion, that kinda thing. Those morals are based on religious beliefs, and Kerry and many others have criticized him for putting his religious beiefs before his politics. Well, as far as I'm concerned, if you belief something to be right, you push for it as best you can, and that's the best you can do. I personally put God before my country, but I could get in big trouble for saying that. However, that's just my thinking, which I'm allowed to have because it's a great country, and that's why I personally support his morals. And about the McCain thing: I would assume, though I obviously can't say for sure, it was a rumor he'd heard, and he really thought based on that rumor that it was true. Yes, he shouldn't have spread it without knowing the truth. Yes he should've and could've done other things better, like we could've paid some more attention to Iran and North Korea. Personally I don't think it's possible to focus that much attention on too many countries at once, and I don't believe anyone's perfect, do you?

Black box: I'm not worried, I'm just fed up. Sure it's their right to be all frisked up in trying to find some way to get a man they dislike out of the presidency, but talk about sore losers. I was disappointed both times Clinton won, but I didn't go around whining about it and trying to rally people against him and bring him down. That's a pet peeve of mine.

Oh, and for the record, I'm an independent, so I don't simply support Bush because most of the people in my religion do. I look at both sides of every argument and I'm willing to change my mind if I see proof that shows something to be true. I almost believed Michael Moore about some things, for example, until I had proof shown to me. I have that proof, if anyone wants it. If anyone can show me something that proves me wrong on any of the above argument, give me proof. And DON'T overwhelm me with all this liberal anti-bush crap, that's just a bunch of angry people writing their complaints. If I see proof against my arguments written by either a conservative or both sides, then I'll consent. I just don't like it when people only believe one side's story. Both republicans and democrats have corruption in their parties.

*phew* There, I think I'm done.

And I can't help but say the same about your post.

Of course there's been coverage about the jobs lost. The vast majority of news stations and newspapers are INCREDIBLY biased in a liberal way. That picture you have only shows up to December of last year, almost an ENTIRE YEAR AGO. You go look around and you'll find that in the last year we've gained jobs. And it shows that jobs dropped at 2001.0 Well of course they did, 9/11 killed the economy. AND it was decling before Bush got into office, and that's a fact.

I don't believe your claim about countries or terrorists. I never said the terrorists cried and bla bla. They are hating us and want to kill us! They always have! You have any idea how many times they've tried to attack or claimed to have another attack in plan and we prevented it? I don't know where you got the idea that they "recruit" terrorists. And countries are mad about what we're doing because they disagree with us, not because we've "shut them down." They shut US down by doing nothing.

And there are several documents to prove that Saddam has protected many different terrorists AND harmed the lives of Americans several several times. I was afraid I'd have to whip out this article, but read it. It's not only about Michael Moore.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1164856/posts

I've gotta go or I'd keep going.

About the deficit spending: I don't have any disagreements per say with your points. But I also don't think lending and investing in property is the only way money is spent in the economy, nor a huge part of the economy anyway, and probably why we're starting to improve in some ways recently in the economy. To be quite honest, I can't give you an exact source that shows where I got the 9:1 ratio, but I know that I've heard it many times by trustworthy people who don't assume anything. However I'll have to get back to you on that. The numbers I've heard are around 1.4 million jobs lost, and over 9 million gained. I'll see if I can figure out where these numbers are coming from.

With the terrorists, I see what you're saying. And to an extent, yes, I believe the vast majority of terrorists are raised with that hatred and the goal of someday being someone who can give their lives for their cause of destroying America. I saw a clip once of a middle-eastern child holding a gun, a real semi-automatic, and he was in a terrorist training camp. I can see what you're saying about recruiting people, but they can only recruit who already hate us, which is their own people for the most part. I'm not terribly surprised they hate us more for fighting back, but I'd rather they hate us more and be fewer and fewer in number than they pull another 9/11 or continue to be supported by powerful government groups (even if Iraq wasn't a huge supporter, though they had been under Saddam to an extent, besides his regime being a murderous tyranny in itself). I don't think terrorists can recruit anyone from other countries outside of the middle-east, like France or Germany or one of those major countries that are mad at us, but they might. I personally believe the number of terrorists out there has decreased by a very good number since we started attacking al Quaeda in Afghanistan, and is decreasing at a good rate, which is why I support how he's done things. Maybe someone can do it better, I'm not opposed to that idea. I did not believe Kerry was that person, however, and I don't have many problems, if any, with how Bush has done it. But I can see why it would bother many people, as you said, the way he went in and attacked. I just don't believe he could wait any longer in his right mind, which I probably couldn't either, and I think our position in Iraq and around the world could be alot worse.

Another reason most these other countries don't like us is simply because we're far more overall conservative than most the world, like with the Jews vs the Palestinians and other stuff. And yes, you're right, the world was pretty compassionate to us on 9/11.0 That was a good time, the first couple months after that. But once we started to take action against the world of terror and actually do something about it is when we started losing support. As far as I know, Bush didn't refute any country before trying to work with the UN, but he made it clear that Iraq was something that needed to be done, with or without other help, which made people mad, of course. So I probably agree there that it wasn't the best of tact. But he still tried and he had and still has support from several countries in this effort. Iraq's liberation in many ways has run smoother than we could've hoped, I don't know why people call it a total mess when every new area we liberate under our control is taken quickly and smooth, like Fallujah recently. We're losing soldiers, and we don't have much, I daresay most, of the world's support. Well, if they're not for us, then stay out of our way, don't expect to be handfed promises and agreements. In argument I can definetely see people disagreeing with me and more power to them. I just can't stand the thought of innocent people dying all over the place because of insurgent terrorists and Saddam supporters and us not doing anything about it because we wanna pass the "world test"...again a reason why I would prefer Bush over Kerry here.

And you were right about that first choice with the media, though not as dramatic as you put it. The media tends to be liberal and don't hide it. I've compared news stations Fox and CNN a few times, and I have a source that compares Fox and MSNBC all the time, and I can see that even though Fox has a conservative viewpoint that they are truthful and give both sides to every story and give every story while other stations mostly warp some things or don't even report some stories, like some successes we have out in Iraq. I never see any of those successes on most stations except one, and the one has video coverage and interviews, making it legit. So yea, I'd have to agree with your first choice. For example, that link I posted above was written by a journalist named Dave Koppel who works for CNN, apparently respected by both parties. He made it clear that he was not a Bush supporter but is not heavily anti-bush like many liberals, and here's a guy that went and did his research. Not all journalists are liberal, just most that we hear about/from, and I give conversative journalists just as much credit for being liable. A good reason journalists tend to become liberal could be that they look to joining a news group in the future and for a while CNN and others that were all liberal were the most respected news stations, and since they were liberal...well, the influence follows. That COULD be a reason, and it's a logical reason, influence has a HUGE role in where many, if not most, American's stand with...well, any issue. And personally, on comparing liberal and conversative, I don't think either extremes are right; I tend to fall somewhere inbetween (moderate) with most issues.

Well anyway...I'm glad this discussion kinda toned down a little bit...I tend to get carried away with these things, for one thing, and I don't really like arguments for another, but I don't mind a calm discussion about a disagreement. Let's hope it stays this way, if it continues for long.